Storytelling Ditch These Five Character Archetypes March 27th, 2015 by Chris Winkle Luke Skywalker, the next-to-last hope of the Galaxy. Archetypes tell us what role a character plays in a story. Many of these roles are critical for storytelling, but some are just the opposite. Troublesome roles allow storytellers to cut corners, reducing the overall quality of the tale. Take these five archetypes: 1. The Chosen One To see why the chosen one should be left behind, look no further than Anakin Skywalker from the Star Wars prequels. In the Phantom Menace, plot holes are hand-waved by mentioning his immaculate conception and high midi-chlorian count. Why do we spend so much time watching him in a pod race? He’s the chosen one; everything he does is important! Why does Qui-Gon Jinn bet an entire ship on him while abandoning his mother? He’s the chosen one; he must be the center of attention. Ignore that he’s a boring little kid with no plot relevance. Characters of the chosen one archetype are hailed as the most important person in their setting for reasons that are entirely outside their control. The archetype is used to prop up bland characters who have done nothing to earn praise. Because these characters were born better than everyone else, they don’t have to practice or work hard to make a difference. In the Harry Potter series, Harry is worshiped because of what his mother did, while his hard-working friend Hermione sits in his shadow. Because the chosen one is destined to change the course of history all on their own, the efforts of a larger community are quickly sidelined or forgotten. In A New Hope, the Rebel Alliance looks incompetent after Luke Skywalker swoops in and takes out an entire deathstar. And unlike many other chosen ones, he actually had some outside experience. By leaving the world-saving to one person, you’ll get a setting that is shallow and simplistic. No one makes history in a vacuum. Heroes can still stand out in a crowd, but they should earn their titles with hard work and the right choices, not because it was preordained by the cosmos. 2. The Prize In Scott Pilgrim vs. the World (2010), Scott goes through seven trials in order to date Ramona. If you’ve ever wondered why the two lovebirds at the center of this movie have zero chemistry, it’s because it’s not a love story. It’s about how Scott climbs the social ladder by defeating seven people with increasing levels of “cool factor.” Ramona is just an indicator of whether he’s made it into the cool club. They only exchange a few words before he falls for her, but she’s clearly more hip than him, and that’s all he needs to know. She’s the prize. Characters of this archetype don’t exist for themselves; they are simply there to bestow glory on whoever “owns” them. The owner at the beginning of the story is usually a father, husband, or lover. Not just any father or lover, but a really powerful one. In most cases, it’s this powerful owner that makes the prize worthy of attention. In Ramona’s case, she has seven owners – ex-boyfriends (and one ex-girlfriend) that are cool, tough, and claim the right to decide whether she dates. When Scott succeeds in taking ownership of her away from them, he’s completed his social climb. He becomes an alpha male, and his prize is there to prove it. I probably don’t need to explain why reducing a person to a shiny new corvette isn’t a good practice. But it also uses a character as a weak intermediary between the two people the story is really about – the hero and the owner. To fix the prize archetype, just combine the prize character with their owner. Let the scrappy hero woo the chieftain herself instead of the chieftain’s daughter. Once the prize controls their own sexuality, you’ll be forced to give your romance some genuine conflict. 3. The Hero-Hater Snape from Harry Potter has many strong points, but the way he treats Harry is cartoonish. Snape hates him because of a few arrogant mannerisms no other character notices that were supposedly inherited from a father Harry never knew. The message from Rowling is clear: there is no logical* reason behind his feelings, just irrational prejudice. What would happen if Snape had a decent justification for his antagonism? Harry would need significant flaws for him to dislike. They would have a serious disagreement that was the result of a legitimate difference in opinion. Hell, Snape and Harry might even learn something from each other, and eventually bridge their differences. But we can’t have that, because Harry must be a paragon of virtue. So that’s where the hero-hater comes in. Every hero needs an antagonist to struggle against. When the storyteller wants the hero to be flawless in the eyes of every decent person, they create indecent people to torment them. These characters are usually motivated by jealousy of the hero’s perfection, but they can have any motivation that’s a character flaw on the part of the hater and is never – absolutely never – the fault of the hero. If that’s what you want, make your hero part of an underprivileged group and your hater motivated by bigotry. As long as you fully integrate this injustice into your setting, your bigoted hero-haters will add rather than detract from your story. That’s because you aren’t just using them to shower your hero with candy. You’ll be conveying a meaningful message and offering motivation that is compelling. Rowling already had prejudice against muggle-borns in her setting, all she had to do was make Harry one of them. Or again, switch him out for Hermione. 4. The Damsel In season five of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, some magical monks decide to take this mystic key they have and give it to Buffy as a sister named Dawn. Buffy soon learns that the key was given to her so she would guard it from an evil goddess who wants to destroy the world. And Dawn? She has no memory of what she was. She can’t harness any of her powers, and so she has no way to defend herself against the evil goddess. It makes you wonder why the monks didn’t turn Dawn into a set of actual keys; they would have been easier to hide and a lot less trouble. The damsel is distinguished by their interchangeability with a paperweight that has sentimental value. Their personal attributes are irrelevant; what matters is the hero’s emotional attachment to them. They are prevented from doing anything that matters or even defending themselves, just so the hero can do it on their behalf. The villain kidnaps them; the hero frees them. The villain endangers them; the hero saves them. It begs the question: why bother with the damsel at all? The hero is usually attached to their own life; let them get kidnapped and free themselves. If you want you hero to selflessly save others, you still don’t need a major character to scream and kick their legs helplessly. Instead, your villain can threaten a busload of adorable kittens that are being broadcast over the internet. Don’t fashion a character just to use them as a prop. 5. The Puppeteer Despite being far away, Man in the Moon decides the fates of all the magical beings in Rise of the Guardians (2012). He brings Jack Frost to life, names him, and then abandons him to cluelessly wander the world. Hurt by the Moon’s silence and the cruelties of his new life, Jack makes trouble for several hundred years. Then the Man in the Moon upgrades his status to “guardian” without even telling him. The puppeteer is a powerful character that knows what’s best for everyone else. In most cases, they aren’t heavily involved in the events of the story, or they would dispel all mysteries and resolve all conflicts. So instead they act in a completely irrational manner, leaving the hero to struggle without their help or guidance, even when they desperately need it. Design kind and knowing gods to your heart’s content, but reconsider before putting them in your story. First, because they disempower other characters by making decisions for them. This not only removes character agency but also reduces character conflict that would enrich your story. What if the guardians had to choose Jack to join their team, even though they dislike him after all the trouble he’s caused? What if Jack didn’t have the Man in the Moon to verify he was worthy of being a guardian? The story would be more meaningful without hand-waving everything the Man in the Moon decides. Second, having a character that’s always right makes the storyteller look dumb. Whenever the puppeteer behaves irrationally, the storyteller can’t use character flaws as an explanation. That means if the puppeteer is wrong, the story is wrong. And since puppeteers are almost always too powerful, they behave irrationally on a regular basis. Every character worth developing shapes their own destiny through the choices they make, even though they won’t always make the right ones. If you take choice away from them or make their choices easy or meaningless, you might as well cut them out of the story. Need an editor? We’re at your service. Read more about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Character Archetypes, Characters, Harry Potter, Star Wars Comments Bruce Hahne March 29, 2015 at 4:50 pm > Heroes can still stand out in a crowd, but they should earn their titles > with hard work and the right choices, not because it was preordained > by the cosmos. Hm, very Protestant work ethic. Rule out The Chosen One as an origin trope and you kill Green Lantern (all of them), Thor, Harry Potter, Captain Marvel (Billy Batson version), Buffy, and probably about half of Greek mythology. God also disagrees with you: “And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased.” (Matt. 3:16-17) No hard work and right choices there, he was just chosen. Storytellers use The Chosen One because it works, it continues to work, and movies that use this origin trope well make money. – Bruce Reply to Bruce Hahne Alverant August 18, 2015 at 7:20 pm No the Chosen One is used in works of fiction because it’s a cheat by lazy authors. It’s an easy way to explain why the main character is so special without having to do anything to earn their special place. The only real people in history who you could really say were “Chosen Ones” were members of the nobility and most of the time they were either barely able or even incompetent and all of them had human flaws and failings. Reply to Alverant Carl January 22, 2016 at 4:37 pm I think The Chosen One also speaks to something flawed in the human psyche in general. I mean, most people seem to think one person is responsible for, well, anything. Apple making a comeback? That’s all Steve Jobs. As if no one else there at the time mattered, or were even close to as important. But there’s a reason many times people like that have some great success and then spend the rest of their lives trying (and failing) to repeat it. They got all the credit, but they were only partially responsible for the success in actuality. I’m not saying they weren’t important, but that the importance of any single person is often overstated. And I think that’s because we want a single ‘name’ to assign the credit (or blame) for anything monumental. Reply to Carl Oren Ashkenazi January 22, 2016 at 5:10 pm I assume Steve Jobs is responsible for everything. Seattle being super rainy right now? Steve Jobs. My car running out of gas? Steve Jobs. Not getting the job I wanted? Steve JOBS, obviously. Reply to Oren Ashkenazi Anon Adderlan February 6, 2016 at 3:48 am Steve Jobs is not a Chosen One, but a Self-Made Man. His success was not ordained from on high, but a product of his skill, charisma, and drive. And of course he didn’t do it alone. In fact, his greatest abilities were recognizing talent, delegating authority, instilling passion in others, and making meaningful connections with people. “Apple making a comeback? That’s all Steve Jobs. As if no one else there at the time mattered, or were even close to as important.” Apple didn’t just make a comeback, it went from borderline bankruptcy to the world’s most valuable company under his leadership, and remained so until Google overtook them just this week. And while other people did matter (read up on why Jonathan Ives kept his job), indeed none of them were even close to as important. “But there’s a reason many times people like that have some great success and then spend the rest of their lives trying (and failing) to repeat it.” Steve’s greatest success came AFTER he formed Apple with Woz (you know, the creators of the Mac, iPod, and the model all modern mobile devices are based on), finished with NeXT (you know, the machines Doom and the first web browser were written on), and became CEO of Pixar (you know, the studio with 15 Academy Awards and 13 of the 50 highest grossing animation films of all time). At the end of his live at just 56, he was running the world’s most valuable company and the largest shareholder of Disney. So much for failing to repeat it. He wasn’t perfect mind. Sometimes he was downright cruel. But the point is we lose much of a character’s humanity (to say nothing of our own) when we’re driven by an agenda to apply reductive identities to them. And sometimes, one person makes all the difference. Reply to Anon Adderlan Leon March 25, 2018 at 5:51 pm I think its about natural selection. Those willing to unite under king; one chosen by God, gods or elders or even simple birthright, reguardless of the leaders ability (because it is his officials who really run things) would have a better chance of survival than smaller clusters of individuals or those under a more deserving “Big Man” type ruler whos power will die with him. The Chosen One isn’t a person, its an mantle that can be bestowed upon anybody. Reply to Leon Anon Adderlan February 6, 2016 at 2:30 am “The only real people in history who you could really say were “Chosen Ones” were members of the nobility and most of the time they were either barely able or even incompetent…” That’s a rather broad assumption to make. What evidence do you have to support this assessment? Reply to Anon Adderlan Carly February 6, 2017 at 4:06 pm Harry was a Chosen One in the Harry Potter books and they turned out well. Reply to Carly Matt Black March 30, 2015 at 1:27 pm Except, Anakin is supposed to be helpless. In Phantom Menace, he’s as much a McGuffin as he is a character. Because he’s just a kid, and kind of a badass inventor/racecar driver kid. Using the chosen one archetype was not where Phantom Menace failed. Reply to Matt Black Qondomon May 30, 2015 at 9:42 am Oh the Chosen One is really so used that I die when I heard something like that! But , like Bruce Hahne told is everywhere, even in religion and that kind of stories are terribly popular (nothing against, but I think is an unrealistic archetype) Creating characters just to create, is better giving them at least an interesting goal (to the prize and the damsel) right? right?…. I’m being honest here, and I love Harry Potter (books and movies) but I really hated the whole “Snape is bad”. “Snape and Harry might even learn something from each other” An interesting point! Reply to Qondomon Nelda Dunlap May 31, 2015 at 9:06 am The Hero Hater. I must disagree with this point. People do indeed hate others for nor reason that other can see. I myself have been a victim of that type of predujice, so I know it is a real trait in flawed humans and in characters. Reply to Nelda Dunlap Oren Ashkenazi May 31, 2015 at 11:09 am Well, there’s a difference between ‘no reason’ and ‘stupid reason,’ right? Like, people who hate others generally have a reason, they’re just often wrong. Racists have deeply ingrained hostility against people who are different, for example. Reply to Oren Ashkenazi Chris Winkle June 1, 2015 at 1:18 am I think the important thing is that it doesn’t feel like a contrivance of the author, in order to label a character that actually has it really good as an innocent victim. It’s true that people can be irrational in their hatred, if you can depict in your stories without making it feel weirdly convenient, power to you. But I think in most cases, it would still be a wasted opportunity, storytelling wise. Arguments with two sides are generally more interesting than one sided ones. Bigotry against categories of people is one-sided, but it can have other benefits to stories that make up for it. Reply to Chris Winkle Thales August 28, 2015 at 1:11 pm “Mannerisms?” Did you actually finish the HP series before writing this? I don’t want to spoil it for you… Reply to Thales Shannon September 19, 2015 at 9:50 am StartRant/ Hi, I don’t mean any offense, but this will come across as angry, because, well, I am rather angry – and I know we are entitled to our own opinions and such, and I respect yours, I’m just letting you know I think your using a very bad example when you use Snape, and I think you should probably use a different character. And i’m usually a nice person, and stay in the background on posts like this, making no noise, and pretending that I don’t exist. But, dobby’s shown up, and I can’t help it, I need to make some noise. Lol. I’m probably going to overkill in my explanations, but, I’m just upset, lol. #bigharrypotterfan It seems, from your “Strong Points” post, that you do understand Snape’s relationship with both James and Lily, so I don’t quite understand why he is the example in this list of yours. “Snape hates him because of a few arrogant mannerisms no other character notices that were supposedly inherited from a father Harry never knew. The message from Rowling is clear: there is no reason behind his feelings, just irrational prejudice.” I’m sorry to say, I feel that just about everything in this paragraph is so wrong on so many levels it makes me sad to just know that its just written out. So I have lots to say in rebuttal in hopes that you may scrub it’s existence from the internet. First, lets address that these “arrogant mannerisms” are not the reason why Snape hates Harry. Having to qualify that: ‘inherited from a father Harry never knew.’ implies there is more to this story – that of the relationship between Harry’s father and Snape, and thus, Harry’s “arrogant mannerisms” is not enough of a reason for Snape to hate him, it’s because of James. So, because of his classification, it means already that we understand that the root of Snape’s hatred for Harry does not begin with Harry, but with Harry’s father – as you stated. By itself, having arrogant mannerisms is not enough to hate a person. The hate Snape has for James comes from the years James and co tormented and bullied and belittled Snape. (In fact, I do believe that James bullying towards Snape is a much better example of ‘no reason’ or ‘indecent justification’ over the way Snape treats Harry – which is your two reasons as to why you’ve cast Snape as “The Hero-Hater”) And while this alone is a reason for him to dislike Harry, it’s still not a reason to hate him. But introduce Lily into the mix, and you got a good reason for Snape to hate Harry. First, Snape loved Lily, and James took her away from him. Second stems from his own personal hatred for himself. Had he acted differently as both a child and as adult, he could have firstly, been with Lily, or secondly, prevented her death. Harry is a constant reminder of his failures. There is your reason. Boom. Snape had already decided way before he and Harry met, that he already hated him. And by the time the two do meet, Snape was projecting James upon Harry, and it gives him the chance to be the bully rather then the victim. It gives him the power in the James-Snape relationship, and he can justify this by taking every little thing Harry does and turning it into a James like thing. So, while ‘other characters’ may not see these mannerisms in Harry, Snape certainly does, justified or not. On the topic on wether or not others viewed James as arrogant has nothing to do with the point, because its not about “other characters” its about how Snape feels, and asides, I do believe Remus, and possibly Serius have both had discussion with Harry about his father, and they do not deny that James was arrogant and a bully, – as they were as well, so, James really was somewhat of an arrogant person. And, so, with all that I’ve stated – that bit tacked onto the end about J.K Rowlings ‘message’ is complete and utter bullshit, because clearly, and justifiably, Snape has a rather legitimate reason to hate Harry. Incase you missed it, which you might have because I rattled on and on with my flubber mouth, lol. The reason he hates Harry is not because he hates Harry, *shock* but because Harry is a constant reminder of his failures. 1. That he loved Lily and wasn’t able to keep her friendship. 2. That James took Lily away from him. 3.That he was bullied by James. 4. Lily and James went of and began this perfect life, with Harry, which he couldn’t obtain. And 5. He could have prevented it Lily’s death. and eventually bridge their differences. Well, they do bridge their differences. Snape (besides the fact that he was actually trying to help Harry survive throughout the entire series) gave him the key to kill Voldermort. And died in Harry’s arms – seeing Lily in him, rather then James, and finding comfort in that. And incase you missed it – Harry named one of his children “Albus Serverus” after “the bravest men I know.” That Gap looks pretty bridged to me – I defiantly think that If Snape made it through the war, they’d certainly have this mutual respect for one another. If your going to use Snape as an example, your quite welcome, he is the Hero-Hater. But just get your facts straight. Snape is not the stereotypical Hero-Hater, like, for example, Draco is. If Snape wasn’t in the story, there might not even be a story, where if Draco wasn’t in it, sure, there would be some chances, but for the most part the story could get by. Anyway. /EndRant Sorry. Reply to Shannon Chris Winkle September 19, 2015 at 3:12 pm Hi Shannon, Your criticisms are actually quite respectful, hence why I’m responding. But before I move on to discussing Snape, I’d like to mention that I love Harry Potter. That’s why I talk about it so much. But Mythcreants is here to build storytelling muscles, and just praising all the things we like wouldn’t do that very well. To analyze and build better stories, storytellers have to learn not to get angry and defensive about possible imperfections in our favorite stories or characters. It’s good practice for later, when we must listen to tough criticism about the stories that are most dear to us: our own. As for Snape, I think we are largely in agreement. Rowling does establish Snape’s emotional motivations for hating Harry. Somewhat late, but she does. However, those motivations are still an irrational prejudice, not a logical reason. Harry does not deserve to be hated because of someone’s experiences with the parents that didn’t even raise him. And that’s the key to the “hero-hater” archetype: the author is creating enemies for the hero while making sure the hero never bears any responsibility. This reduces the level of interesting conflict in the story, and makes characters feel like caricatures (I do think Snape feels like a caricature in the early books). Situations are generally more clear cut, and that leaves less room for both sides to grow and learn from each other. I agree that Draco should be considered a hero hater, but I think he is actually less so then Snape. If you look back to Book 1, you’ll see that Draco tries to befriend Harry. They become enemies after Harry rejects Draco in front of a bunch of other students, embarrassing him. Harry had a good reason to do that, but it was still his actions that caused the rift. I’m not going to scrub the existence of my Snape criticisms from the internet , but I will add the word “logical” to the phrase “there is no reason behind his feelings,” to clarify that while there is a reason, it’s not what we would consider the right reason to hate someone. Reply to Chris Winkle Shannon September 19, 2015 at 8:32 pm Hi Chris, Trust me, the first draft of my response wasn’t but I don’t like being that person, and to save on a lot more dribble then what I did post, I did cut a lot out, haha. I figured if I was polite, we’d have a better chance at an adult debate, rather then me screaming at you till I was red in the face. And I guess creating awesome characters should evoke a reaction in readers, so, what ever Rowling is doing with Snape, she’s doing it right by me. “those motivations are still an irrational prejudice, not a logical reason.” It matters not wether they are irrational or illogical, for they are still motivations. Maybe this is what is irritating me about this post. – People ARE irrational and illogical – its our nature, and is one of the things that makes us undoubtedly human and realistic as complex people with thoughts and feelings. I’ve been irrational. I’m sure you’ve been irrational. Suicide bombers are irrational. Teenagers are irrational. Murdering someone is irrational. Being racist and sexist is irrational. Love and Hate can also be irrational. But they still do what they do, because in their mind, they have a fair justification. Having now said that, I would like to point out the irony in your own irrationality of believing that Snape’s irrationality is a good enough reason to paint him as an unrealistic character in the department of hating Harry, because your both being irrational – and your a real person, and thus, being irrational can and should apply to a character in certain situations to make them more believable. “Harry does not deserve to be hated because of someone’s experiences with the parents that didn’t even raise him.” One hundred percent agree. Harry, nor anyone else for that matter, hero or not, made up or not, deserves to be hated because of something that they did not do – but that shit happens in real life constantly. People hate other people for irrational prejudice’s, and illogical reasons all the time. Every single day gay guys are getting beaten up and even killed for just being gay. So, “Gay people do not deserve to be hated because of someone’s experiences with people that didn’t even KNOW the gay person, (or the gay person’s parents, or even their dog for that matter) in question.” But that doesn’t stop people from still beating up that gay person. This is a real life situation. I think I can safely establish that people can, and indeed do, hate other people for illogical reasons – wether you or I or someone else reading this, think its a “decent justification” or not. “And that’s the key to the “hero-hater” archetype: the author is creating enemies for the hero while making sure the hero never bears any responsibility.” I see this. I understand this. If this is the point your trying to make with Snape, its a great point, just executed in a very bad way. Harry does not bear any responsibility for Snape’s hatred, you are one hundred percent right. But this is a far as Snape as ‘the Hero-Hater” should go, because Snape’s hatred IS a legitimate thing. His hatred isn’t a flawed character development, like your making it out to be. Its how a real person could act because irrationality is a human trait, if it wasn’t we wouldn’t be having this discussion, because the word irrational wouldn’t exist. To make this point we don’t need to know why Snape hates Harry, just that Harry has not been the one to cause it. And thereby proceeding to incorrectly explain why Snape hates Harry misses the point your trying to make in the first place. (I do think Snape feels like a caricature in the early books) Me two – but these books were written for 12 year olds. At 12, one knows that some people are bad, and some people are good, and thats all that really matters. All we care about is the journey the good guy is on – we want to know the adventure. Its not until we are older do we begin to question why someone is bad, and at this point, JK expected her books to grow more dark as Harry, and her audience grew, and so when these questions became relevant, they were answered by her. Also, like in life, we only get one viewpoint, and that is ours. We only see Harry’s POV, and that is only his perception – no one else’s. “I’m not going to scrub the existence of my Snape criticisms from the internet , but I will add the word “logical” to the phrase “there is no reason behind his feelings,” to clarify that while there is a reason” And yet, regardless of either of our thoughts or feelings on this, saying that Snap hates Harry because of the ‘few arrogant mannerisms’ is STILL vey much incorrect, because that is NOT the reason why Snape hates Harry in the first place, wether you insert a “logical” in the paragraph or not. “it’s not what we would consider the right reason to hate someone.” We? I’m sorry who might be the “we” in this situation be that you speak of? You and me? What about the kind of person that beats up a gay man just because he is gay, or what about people who abuse children and animals for fun? – would they think the reason to be a just one or not? Just because something is immoral, doesn’t mean people are with or against it – take Hitler – he was a horrible person and dictator, (in my opinion, Hitlers followers would thick differently) but people still followed him even though he was an immoral person. But – I DO agree with you – hating someone for their mannerisms isn’t a good enough reason to hate someone – BUT THATS NOT THE REASON WHY SNAPE HATES HARRY, So by beginning with this as your leading point as to why Snape is “the hero-hater” is misgrievancely wrong – and unless you can explain to me why you think that this is THE ENTIRE reason why Snape hates Harry, (which I know you don’t) and by going on to say “inherited from a father Harry never knew” already proves you don’t believe that, because you felt a further explanation was needed. I’m afraid any further points you make will have no stance with me, because they way I see it, your are lying, not only in the post to get a point across, which in my opinion has failed, but your lying to yourself. Here, I’ll fix the first paragraph for you so it makes sense: Snape from Harry Potter has many strong points, but the way he treats Harry comes from an illogical and irrational prejudice that stems from his past struggles with Harry’s father and mother. Harry has done nothing directly to Snape, but Snape still harbors these prejudice feelings against him. And that’s the key to the “hero-hater” archetype: the author is creating enemies for the hero while making sure the hero never bears any responsibility. There. Simple. Easy. And Truthful. Reply to Shannon Chris Winkle September 19, 2015 at 10:57 pm Hi Shannon, I started preparing a response, but in reviewing your comment, I found you are no longer being respectful. Because you made a big effort in your last comment to check yourself, and you wanted to have a conversation with me, I wanted you to know why I’m not responding anymore. Reply to Chris Winkle Shannnon September 20, 2015 at 2:01 am Okay, fair enough No worries Reply to Shannnon Brie October 11, 2015 at 11:16 am I love Snape. I know why he’d do all those things to Harry. I don’t know why Rowling allowed Harry to be so stupid-blind about everything except to keep the story going. If you’re going to attack an archetype, attack the dumb hero card that’s overplayed. And I agree to a point with Man in Moon. Where you think you lose meaning, I think it gains. The writer wanted to put God into the story. There is more meaning to life if I knew I was created and I didn’t just exist. I was made for something. Someone that feels abandoned but ends up fulfilling his meaning through his free will…I see how that might upset some, but not to those who believe, and feel that similar abandonment. I’ll take what this post says to mind. I still know authors that use archetypes and twist them in a way you can’t notice. Reply to Brie David MacDowell Blue December 8, 2015 at 2:42 pm Seems to me Harry Potter is anything but a paragon of virtue. More, he would have never achieved anything at all without the help of many others–an interesting irony since of course he is such a crucial figure in the defeat of Voldemort. Granted, the use of “The Chosen One” has become tiresome and generally ill-used (I would call Annakin Skywalker the worst example of this) but Rowling used it very cleverly, with genuine depth. Reply to David MacDowell Blue Skylark December 29, 2015 at 6:58 pm Re: Chosen One. I want to see this trope using a very flawed character. Like they have an emotional breakdown because of the weight of expectation put on them, or they really let everyone down and have to work their way back up, becoming the Chosen One not by prophecy, but through blood, sweat and tears. (A story about destiny vs free will could get a lot of mileage out of “was Chosen One destined to succeed and then somehow failed, or were they destined to fail so they’d work harder and thus succeed?). Annakin is a good example of the emotional aspect going horribly wrong – so many people expect him to be the Chosen One, he gets taken in by the Emperor just treating him like a person. By the time he realizes the Emperor has plans for him as The Chosen One, he’s gone too far to turn back (or so he’s convinced). I will definitely agree with you that Episode I played this WAY too straight, though. I loved Phantom Menace when it came out, but that was because I was about Annakin’s age and used to kids’ movies have the story revolve around a kid, logical or no. Looking at it now in the context of the rest of Star Wars, I like it a lot less. Re: The Prize. Ramona still suffers this a bit in the comics, but less so. We see a little more interaction between her and other characters, Scott has to go through character development of his own, and it’s Ramona who takes agency and turns the tide in the final fight. There’s still “trophy-ization” in the storyline, but it’s a little more balanced. But they cut all that out in the movie. >:-| Reply to Skylark Chris Winkle December 29, 2015 at 7:11 pm That would be cool, I’m up for all subversions of the Chosen One archetype. The prequels were maybe attempting that? It’s hard to tell what their intent was, just that they didn’t succeed. I’ve never read the Scout Pilgrim comic but I’ve heard it’s pretty good, and explains things better. I’m glad Ramona has a stronger role. Reply to Chris Winkle Skylark December 29, 2015 at 7:19 pm Yeah, the prequels suffered from a lot of “it could have been so much more” Definitely recommend the Scott Pilgrim books. They still suffer a little from the same issues, but to a much smaller degree, and Scott actually has to confront some of his own issues (the movie’s just like “so yeah he’s a loser but now he’s kinda cool just roll with it”) (The rest of this is about the comics ending, so if you do plan on reading them just stop here). In the books, we repeatedly get an actual entry into Ramona’s mind, where she is still in thrall to Gideon. At the climax, we return to her mind, where we see that this version of Ramona is a part of her mind that is still attached to him – but that other parts are more than willing to kick his butt. If you read her relationship with Gideon as somewhat abusive (it certainly comes off this way to me), it reflects that You can’t erase an emotional relationship from your past, but you can move on from it, stronger than before. Reply to Skylark Leon March 25, 2018 at 4:46 pm I’m guessing you still havent read Scott Pilgram (because it’s still in this post). You really should. Mostly because its good. In the books Gideon Graves isn’t just a jerk, he’s a monster who uses a psychic weapon he invented to use & manipulate people. Both Scott and Ramona rescue eachother, once they work past the fact that they’re both total jerks. The movie suffered from not having enough time to tell the story. But the place to improve it wasnt in the characters; they needed to take a few extra moments to show the extent of Gideons control over people, and when his power was broken. Great artical by the way. Reply to Leon Skylark December 29, 2015 at 7:13 pm Re: Snape. I think he had deeper reasons for hating Harry (not good, but more developed). The problem is we got so very little of those reasons until nearly the end of the series, making Snape fit this type until near the very end. Another big component to this type, that Snape plays to a T, is that these characters exist in a vacuum. No one ever steps up and says “cut that out” – Snape abuses Harry like crazy, and no fellow staff, not even Dumbledore, either stops him or explains his reasons to Harry. This sort of thing is necessary for the archetype – the Hero-Hater having to justify their actions either a) reveals how silly their reasons are or b) reveals deeper reasons that push the characters toward reconciliation if they’re not total dingbats. Reply to Skylark Aryllia September 18, 2016 at 7:08 am Sorry for replying to an old comment but I think about what you said about the characters existing in a vacuum a lot. It’s not like it was in any way a secret that Snape and Lily were friends until their… 5th year was it? 5 out of 7 years in school they were friends, and Snape was so young when he became a teacher that several of his now-colleagues would have been teaching him and Lily. Then there’s characters like Remus and Sirius that were in the same year, and the same class as Lily. Yet no one even hinted to Harry that Snape and Lily had ever been on speaking terms. Some are excused, like Dumbledore who made a promise to Snape to be quiet, but that still leaves – McG, though admittedly I’d find it more likely that she just tells Snape off for harassing one of her students and leaves it at that. – Sirius, who could have let something slip when Harry mentioned the memory, even just commenting along the lines of “serves him right that she never spoke to him again after that”. – Remus, who seems to have at least known Lily before she started dating James and is unlike Sirius capable of mentioning Snape without bringing the insults. – Slughorn, who would have had Snape and Lily in the same classroom and likely see them working together if the double class divisions were the same in the 70s as in the 90s and given that they keep the same textbooks for three generations I don’t think they changed double class. – Hagrid, who in all other instances is more or less completely incapable of keeping anything secret. Given that he wasn’t a teacher in the 70s and would likely not have interacted much or any with Snape or Lily when they were young, I would say he’d be excused. Except for the fact that he’s notorious for conveniently handing out information that Hermione can’t find in a book. Instead, if any of these characters do mention Snape’s reasons they all reinforce that it’s all about James Potter and only James Potter. And while James does play a really major part among Snapes many issues, it makes it seem like all these people who had seen James and Snape fight couldn’t recall a single instance Snape and Lily had ever interacted. It makes one wonder if Dumbledore (or Snape, for the sake of fairness) went around and obliviated those memories away for everyone. The only resolution Snape gets for the entire mess is a gory death and a posthumous “I am not sorry for harassing you throughout your education but here’s a montage of my motives now go die”. Reply to Aryllia Brigitta M. January 17, 2016 at 8:56 pm For me, the biggest problems with Harry Potter had to do with the fact I loved it while I read it but there’s way too much “fridge logic” for the magical world to be anything but an unpleasant place to be. Yes, Snape has a lot of those moments. I get his disliking Harry. He’s not exactly a creative thinker, but a very logical one with a very small box. He didn’t love Lily. He was obsessed over her. James didn’t “take” Lily. Lily and James chose one another. Snape could never see Lily as her own person, but only as this idealized fantasy. Then, he gets so ticked off by his fantasy being betrayed, that he joins the Death Eaters. AKA, the magical world’s version of the Nazi Party. Then when he learns that Lily has been targeted, he turns on the Death Eaters and spends the remainder of his life virtually unpunished for what he’s done before Lily and James were targeted. Even when he goes to the Potter house… he comforts her corpse instead of the crying child. So… the potions master is supposedly a reformed Nazi War General in a school where the very students are likely his prior targets. He did nothing to prove that he was worthy of that title except for his skill with potions. Not that the school in general has ever cared about the welfare of the students. Dumbledore said it mockingly about the Slytherins when there was a troll in the dungeon, but when Lucius Malfoy threatens Harry right outside his door, Dumbledore doesn’t even peek his head out. And that’s not even covering how there are no safety spells in regards to Quidditch. But back to Snape. He wasn’t worthy of spit. Yeah, he was an interesting character over the course of the books, but Snape never had to admit to any of the wrong he had done and a single session with the pensieve and Harry forgives him? There’s a reason Harry didn’t go to Ravenclaw, but maybe he should have been sorted into Hufflepuff because he just wants to be friends with everyone (at least after they say they’re sorry and apparently really mean it). Reply to Brigitta M. Adrian January 31, 2016 at 12:58 am A great subversion of the Chosen One archetype exists in the Mistborn trilogy by Brandon Sanderson. Or should I say, there are at least three subversions of the archetype in the trilogy. I don’t want to spoil it, but suffice to say that what people THINK regarding the chosen one (who it is, what prophecies prove them, where the prophecies come from, what the chosen one has to do) is heavily toyed with by Sanderson. Do note however that Sanderson does heavily use the Chosen One archetype in his fiction overall, and in a number of cases plays it mostly straight. If you want a spoiler to pique your interest, I’ll post it here: SPOILER ALERT The Lord Ruler is a ‘chosen one’, but he’s the big bad of the first novel. Except you learn that he’s not the chosen one at all, but killed the chosen one everybody expected out of suspicion and jealousy. Then you learn that he heavily screwed up using the chosen one powers and basically failed utterly at the role he took for himself. Reply to Adrian Victoria Ohlsson April 30, 2016 at 8:42 pm I think Snape’s hatred for Harry was justified; not in morality or sensibility, but human nature. He was bullied by James, he was jealous of him, and James ended up marrying the love of his life, who got murdered. So no, I don’t think he had any real, rational reason to hate him; human beings aren’t always rational. I would say all of his jealousy and frustration got passed down to harry directly, because he never got to express it to James or get him back. Harry being in Hogwarts as his student might seem like the perfect opportunity to get revenge on James for a man who was tormented, and who’s love chose his tormentor before she died. It’s safe to say that Snape was going through a lot to be completely rational. Also, I felt there were a few times that Harry picked up on some bullying tactics towards Snape that seemed to be exactly like his father’s. Let’s not forget that the hero (Harry) also had some presumptuous feelings towards him when they first met. I admire most all of your posts and find them to be well explained and helpful, but I think there’s justification for some of these character archetypes. Reply to Victoria Ohlsson SunlessNick May 31, 2016 at 9:10 am If you want you hero to selflessly save others, you still don’t need a major character to scream and kick their legs helplessly. Indeed, while “make it personal” is usually good advice, if it’s selfless heroism you want to demonstrate, then it’s a much better demonstration with someone the hero doesn’t specifically care about. Buffy – since Dawn is your example picture – would risk her life to save someone she met two minutes ago, and may never see again. That’s what made her a hero. Reply to SunlessNick Bronze Dog June 27, 2016 at 7:53 pm I get pretty miffed at The Chosen One these days. That goes double if it’s my character in a tabletop RPG, since it usually means the railroad tracks are going to chafe. Sometime, I’d like to see a Chosen One flat out tell the oracle he’s not interested in the job, he’s happy with his life as is, and proceeds to derail every attempt to get him involved. In the end, everything works out better because people who actually had a stake in the matter chose not to wait around for the prophecy. Another subversion I’d like to see is a world where everything falls apart because people spent too much time and effort arguing over who’s “really” The Chosen One. Answer: No one. The oracle was just gibbering or telling people what they wanted to hear. Some relative “nobodies” get sick of it and fix the problem with elbow grease instead of fate. Reply to Bronze Dog 3Comrades June 28, 2016 at 2:55 am I agree with you, my only exception that I’ve enjoyed when I come across it, is the “chosen one” isn’t someone destined for greatness, but someone with a social obligation. You are the chosen one…now do this dreck job so no one else has to. Or, you are the Chosen One, so get sacrificed to the elements come dawn. It actually has a job of bringing up duty and leaves the character to decide how much they want to follow that. Without future predictions, it can be a good lead in to the story. Of course, saving the world isn’t a social duty. Reply to 3Comrades Cay Reet June 28, 2016 at 7:46 am I agree. Having a “Chosen One” whose fate is negative or coupled to not being allowed to make choices (few people get asked if they want to be sacrificed at dawn) can make for a great story. You can either have the character defy is fate or fight it and in the end realize they have to accept it for one reason or other. That makes for a nice tension in the story. Reply to Cay Reet Julia DeNiro August 30, 2016 at 8:41 pm Hoo, boy–this comment is at least a month late. But your comments about Harry Potter pushed too many of my overly-sensitive buttons–overly-sensitive due to awful fanfic. Harry’s hard-working friend Hermione sits in his shadow? Snape only hates Harry because of his arrogant mannerisms? J.K. Rowling portrays Harry as a paragon of virtue? I’m sorry, but have you even READ all the Harry Potter books? Or did you just watch the movies? Or have you only read horrible Harry Potter fanfiction? 1. It’s an insult to Hermione’s character to even suggest she sits in Harry’s shadow. Hermione is not only a hard worker, but a bossy know-it-all. When she doesn’t agree with someone, she says so–often quite tactlessly. She has strong opinions about causes, but little tact and few social skills, with the result that she alienates people who might otherwise get along with her. She’s argumentative. She can get petty and jealous. Despite all this, she becomes a success in her own right–hell, in the Cursed Child, she even becomes Minister of Magic! Finally, J.K. Rowling has repeatedly stated that Hermione is her favorite character–in fact, her self-insert. I don’t know where people get this stupid idea that Hermione is a long-suffering, submissive Agnes Wickfield clone whom the other characters just don’t appreciate enough, but I wish it would stop. I also wish people would stop characterizing Ron Weasley as the clown of the Harry Potter series, but that’s a rant for another time. 2. All the reasons why Snape hates Harry are harped on in the last three books. I’m not going to mention them, but to reduce Snape to “the character who just has to hate the protagonist for no reason” is absurd. 3. Harry is hardly a paragon of virtue. In Book 5, he’s an angsty asshole–and characters call him out on it. In the same book, he charges straight into danger, dragging his friends with him, and gets many of them injured and his godfather killed–and he actually learns from this experience. Moreover, we learn in Book 5 just WHY Harry is the Chosen One–in a nutshell, it was all Voldemort’s fault. If Voldemort hadn’t believed a half-assed prophecy, he wouldn’t have gone after Harry in the first place, and there wouldn’t have been a Chosen One anyway. So yes, the “Chosen One” cliche is in Harry Potter, but it’s a little more complex than, say, Anakin Skywalker and his midichlorian count. If you don’t like Harry Potter, that’s fine. But when you use it as an example in your analysis and get so much about it blatantly wrong, that’s another story. Reply to Julia DeNiro Link November 20, 2016 at 3:50 pm AMEN TO THAT! Reply to Link Nexus Wolf October 29, 2017 at 4:29 am A late reply, but I have to say. Harry is a paragon of virtue. JK Rowling brushes over his angsty teen phase by giving the Voldemort’s soul part that makes him so aggressive to begin with. It influences his personality with more exposure, just like they turn aggressive when wearing the locket, another Horcrux. Negative feelings are easily born. Harry is basically sinless. The Snape thing has already been commented upon, so I will refrain from explaining it. Reply to Nexus Wolf Michael September 24, 2016 at 2:43 pm The Prize works better if it’s both ways. In the original Scott Pilgrim comics, Ramona was having to fight her own battles (internal and external) to win Scott even as he was doing the reverse. Reply to Michael Link November 20, 2016 at 3:49 pm You’ve made a mistake. A BIG mistake. Snape hates Harry because he’s too much like James. And he hates James for stealing Lily, his true love, the one person he would have died for over and over again. And he actually likes Harry, he protects Harry constantly. He’s been watching over him for all these years. He just can’t stand the James in him because it’s too painful to be reminded of Lily, who died “because of James” (not really, but it’s complicated love stuff). So no, you’re wrong. You’re VERY wrong. Snape has a GOOD REASON to dislike Harry. I’m not saying the archetype isn’t real. It’s very real and very annoying to have an antagonist just for the sake of wanting an antagonist. But not Snape. Especially, since in the end, he actually loved and wanted to protect Harry. Even giving his life for it. Reply to Link Link November 20, 2016 at 3:52 pm After reading all of the comments, basically, the moral of this story is, don’t mess with Snape. Or for that matter, don’t fit Harry Potter into little boxes labeled “archetypes” or “stereotypes” because the Harry Potter universe is so much more complex and unique than that. Reply to Link Tumblingxelian December 5, 2016 at 7:15 am This was well laid out and while I don’t agree 100% it lays out the pitfalls and flaws to all of these tropes, and shows just how toxic and awful some of them are really well. Reply to Tumblingxelian Wilhelmina July 10, 2017 at 12:40 pm Another annoying archetype that I see in fiction a lot is the “I don’t belong” Archetype. Similar to “the chosen one”, there is a character in a certain race or group who has a feeling that he/she doesn’t belong. A real-life example that I encountered in a roleplay was an orphan character who felt like she belonged to another clan, even though her siblings were perfectly normal characters who were barely even in the story, other than just to add “pocket litter” to her. When she and her friends embarked on a quest to save their clan, she acted like she was the leader, or somehow chosen to be the main character, because she didn’t belong with the others, and that she had to continue the quest alone. She destroyed the entire roleplay. The thing that i really hate about these characters is that they did nothing to earn this special title, they were just born like this. I much prefer works such as Narnia, where the characters got themselves into this mess and now they have to fix it. This makes much more seense, as the characters aren’t trying to be “heroic” or “special”, they are just average people who made a mistake and have to fix it. In reality, if there was some huge threat to humanity, I. E. Voldemort from harry potter, normally the characters wouldn’t rush forward to defeat him, unless they accidentally took a few missteps and now they have to fix what they broke or DEATH(or some other mundane consequence). The reason that I really hate the “i don’t belong character” over the chosen one character(the spectrum is much wider there) is that often they either have some awesomely magical, Uuber-good shaman sort of person in their family tree that they’re a direct descendant of, and that makes them special or more important than all of the other characters, and the fact is that they actually WANT to follow in this person’s footsteps, even though they’re roughly a hundred times less powerful than them (though they’ll still have some special oddball power, anyway). other Chosen one types might include the “I don’t want to but I have to” character, who at least feels a tad more real, as they are sort of forced to embark on the quest ahead, instead of volunteering on their own will. Reply to Wilhelmina Joe March 19, 2018 at 10:59 pm Eh. This smacks of some kind of postmodern political correctness. There are so many examples of success with these archetypes that there is no rationale behind “ditching” them, except to suggest it can’t be done well. In particular, the “Chosen One” and the “Damsel in Distress” are probably the most archetypical of all archetypes. The “chosen one” gets depth through reluctance, coming from bad circumstances, being ill-prepared and wary of the task ahead. He usually is only forced to go by the destruction of his home (i.e. Luke in Star Wars). They usually don’t believe they are the chosen one, and growing into that is the drama of their story arc. The problem with Anakin Skywalker is that his arc was unsatisfying, and everyone knew what it was from the start. It was a very difficult writing task, and George Lucas didn’t quite pull it off. Meanwhile, the Damsel in Distress (understandably hated by feminists, but not hated by female audiences) is the ultimate expression of male heroic purpose, and female desire for a hero to sweep her off her feet. Saving the world may seem like a grand goal, but finding and saving the perfect woman is an even better reward for the hero. The fact that she is good and innocent in an evil world is what gives her character dramatic impact. She may not be complicated, but she is a mirror that reflects the evil in those who threaten her, and the good in the hero and other protagonists. She is an ideal, thus an archetype, more than a real human – because it’s fiction. Reply to Joe Cay Reet March 20, 2018 at 4:09 am “understandably hated by feminists, but not hated by female audience” Are you sure? I don’t think so, because of this little gem below: “saving the perfect woman is an even better reward for the hero.” What is the ‘perfect woman’s’ reward here? Not dying? The damsel is an overused archetype which a lot of women, whether they call themselves feminists or not, feel bored with. Why? Because in a lot of stories you could make her a vase and not much would change. Because she has no agenda of her own, she’s just there for the hero to be rewarded. Give that guy a medal, a huge ham, and a money bonus instead. And then this: “ultimate expression of male heroic purpose, and female desire for a hero to sweep her off her feet.” You know what a lot of women desire, even in stories, not just in real life? To kick ass for a change. That’s why they cheer for Furiosa and adored Xena. Because those are women who kick ass and take names. That’s why they love Wynonna Earp, because she even kicked ass while pregnant. That’s why they love Princess Leia – not the metal bikini. Yes, I know some women dream of the Prince Charming to sweep them off their feet and carry them off into the sunset, but do you know where that desire comes from? From being fed the story of the woman who needs to be saved from childhood, from the fairy tales (especially the Disney versions up to Brave/Frozen) and the romance movies and novels. Reply to Cay Reet Artistic Druid March 20, 2018 at 10:53 am Well the Twilight Saga spent more than four years on the NY Times bestseller list. The fastest selling paperback ever is Fifty Shades of Grey. I think its a little offensive to suggest that women only bought these books because we’ve been indoctrinated by Disney. Can you really say that women express “agency” when we make choices you approve of but if our desires aren’t feminist enough they must come from Disney or wherever? Reply to Artistic Druid Cay Reet March 20, 2018 at 11:03 am I wish the damsels had any kind of agency, but they’re just standing around and waiting for everything to happen. As I said, they could be replaced by an inanimate object most of the time. The fact alone that the commenter I answered to puts them down as ‘reward for the hero’ says a lot, I think. Fifty Shades of Grey actually introduced a lot of women (and statistically older women, well into their middle age) to erotica for women. That doesn’t mean its characters have any quality … as with porn in other forms, the action is more important than the actor. As a matter of fact, Christian Grey is a creep who’d be thrown out of any self-respecting BDSM community and Ana basically doesn’t have a character to speak of. Twilight was loved by women, yes … in this case mostly by young adults, though. Those are the women who are still very much influenced by the idea that your Prince Charming will come and save you … from whatever. And I wonder if it would still sell as well as a new entry today, with the large section YA literature has become. Reply to Cay Reet Oren Ashkenazi March 20, 2018 at 11:58 am For the record, it’s really hard to extract meaningful data about audience taste from sales numbers, especially with such limited sample sizes. Like, did Twilight sell super well *because* Bella is a damsel in distress, or *despite* of it? Did readers respond to Bella’s disempowerment, or were they responding to the way Meyer (for better or worse) captured the all consuming nature of teenaged romantic attraction? Similarly, does the fact that the Hunger Games movies did significantly better than the Twilight movies mean that audience tastes have changed and they now prefer female characters with more agency? There’s a sales data point out there to support nearly every view point, it’s never wise to rely on them. Reply to Oren Ashkenazi American Charioteer March 20, 2018 at 3:26 pm From what I’ve read/seen of “50 Shades of Grey,” and from your own review, nothing really happens beyond “powerful guy obsesses over damsel.” I have read “Twilight,” and while it at least it has an actual plot, most of that plot is again “powerful guy obsesses over damsel.” In both cases and in a lot of chick lit and chick flicks, the damseling of the female audience-surrogate is not an unfortunate sideplot, it is at the center of the narrative. Asking whether Twilight succeeded *because* Bella was damselled or *in spite of it* is like asking whether the New Testament sold so well because of or in spite of the main character dying. As for the success of the Hunger Games, of course there are women/girls who want to see a character like Katniss. And of course there are those who want to see objects-of-obsession. There is no singular “female audience,” each woman and each person has their own tastes. No one’s tastes are wrong because they aren’t feminist enough. American Charioteer March 20, 2018 at 3:31 pm Also, the “Twilight” series grossed slightly more than the “Hunger Games” series, even though “Twilight” had to pave the way as it was really the first mainstream teen film series with a female main character. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films Oren Ashkenazi March 20, 2018 at 3:40 pm You’re looking at the wrong statistic. Twilight had 5 films, Hunger Games had 4. Hunger Games has a significantly higher average per film. Joe April 23, 2018 at 11:14 pm It is funny, but also typical, that a woman has to tell a guy who thinks he’s the great feminist that he’s wrong about this. The reasons why these archetypes exist is that they come from places so deep in the human psyche that no amount of political dogma can wash them away. The politically correct trend of the past few decades to shoehorn women into action-hero roles can only succeed by making the woman into a sex object for male audiences. And generally, in my experience, women are not huge fans of those kinds of stories. But I’ll let you speak for it. Reply to Joe Cay Reet April 24, 2018 at 7:38 am Women becoming heroes of their own stories a) doesn’t mean they have to be action heroes and b) doesn’t necessarily make them sex objects for the male audience. There are many different kinds of heroes, not all of whom wield weapons and leave a bloodbath behind, even though I personally want to see more female badasses on screen. But less waif-fu, if possible. Give me a female hero who looks like she can beat up all the bad guys and not like a strong breeze can topple her over. And it is down to the kind of filming done whether you turn a woman into a sex object (that is the ‘male gaze’) or not and to how you dress her. Action heroine in heels? Nope. Action heroine in similar practical clothing as a hero? Yes, please. The problem with the damsel is that she has no agency and no say in her own fate. A woman can get caught and threatened, but while she is doing her stuff. And she should not just be a ‘present’ for the hero in the end. SunlessNick April 24, 2018 at 7:25 pm Female warriors are nothing new, in either reality or art. Cay Reet April 25, 2018 at 3:23 am No, they’re not. There’ve always been warrior women in a lot of different cultures. American Charioteer March 20, 2018 at 8:39 pm Relying on sales data to draw conclusions is how some of us make a living First of all, the issue at hand is whether the popularity of “Twilight” and “Fifty Shades” can be ignored, and I don’t know whether that is even a serious discussion. Secondly, not only was “Twilight” breaking new ground in several ways, but it opened during the Great Recession. Thus while “Twilight” still managed to be the highest grossing film *ever* directed by a woman it was massively outperformed by the next four installments. Collectively, the later four “Twilight” movies still outperformed “The Hunger Games,” which had the advantage of opening during the recovery (not to mention more screen-suitable action scenes). Thirdly, if “audience tastes have changed and they now prefer female characters with more agency” we would have expected to see the popularity of Twilight steadily decline with later movies, and the popularity of Hunger Games increase. The opposite happened, which supports the hypothesis that there isn’t some singular female zeitgeist demanding one kind of story. It is a good thing that stories with female-damsel-surrogates aren’t the only stories we tell, but they clearly aren’t going away. And I agree with Artistic Druid that it is offensive to suggest that women would only enjoy this kind of story if they have been culturally brainwashed. Reply to American Charioteer Cay Reet March 21, 2018 at 3:56 am To be honest, I’m not annoyed about women who enjoy the idea of being damselled and rescued. What I was annoyed about when it came to the original post was saying ‘only feminists (evil women who are not really women) hate damsels, all other women (good women who are real women) love them.’ You don’t have to be a feminist not to enjoy that trope and you’re not supposed to hand in your ‘feminist card’ just for sometimes enjoying it. I agree that different women enjoy different stories and have the right to so. But I still do think the way we’re introduced to romance, men as well as women, does influence our take on it. It influences men who think they have to be heroic manly man to ‘deserve’ a woman – which leads both to men who think they’ll never get one and to men who think they are cheated out of what they ‘deserve’ by life or evil feminist women. They adhere to strategies shown in romance movies (some of which are more likely to get you a ‘cease and desist’ order in real life) and complain when the woman doesn’t fall for them, but gets a lawyer instead (and in my ideal romance story, she’d then marry the female lawyer in the end…). They think that just because they’re interested in what media classifies as ‘nerd stuff’ or ‘geek stuff’ they’ll never have a girl – even though girls are into that, too. The limited view on women in popular fiction/media does mean girls are often first introduced to passive women who are, indeed, often just around as a ‘reward’ for the hero (because they’ll watch/read kid’s stories a long time before they watch/read YA or movies/books for adults – and a lot of YA and adult stuff also adheres to the ‘classic’ stuff). The view has been expanded recently, but that’s one of the actual points – recently. Most women who grew up in my generation (born 1974) or slightly after me (until into the 1980s, I guess, since the late 1980s/early 1990s are when kids stories and teen stories branched out into different characters more often – from my own childhood, I could only list Pippi Longstocking as a non-passive female character I can still remember) have been introduced to romance via fairy tales (and often the ‘kids-friendly’ Disney versions). While later movies (especially Arielle onwards, I’d say) give their female leads more of an agenda, it’s still about finding the perfect guy, being rescued by him in the end, and being with him for the rest of your life. The same topic which romance and rom-com also show, cementing the idea that there is ‘one true love’ and something special should happen when or after you meet them. A lot of the female audience still is from that time – actual statistics say 50 Shades has a lot more fans in the older demographic than among the youngers. Twilight is a different topic, even though its original fans by now probably are well out of their teens, too. Also, about recession and Twilight: recession is when media consumption usually goes up, because people want to get away from the reality for a while. That’s why, for instance, pulp and serials bloomed in the late 1920s and the 1930s. Brave introduced the first female lead in a Disney movie who refused the classic route and Frozen even originally was going to adhere, until they decided to change Elsa and switch from romantic love to sisterly love – a good move, I think. It will take a lot more time until the changes in the stories will really show in our perception of romance and love (especially with the late 1990s/early 2000s often going back to the more traditional characters). That’s why its important that all kinds of media try to diversify more, not just in cast, but also in story. Using the ‘chosen one’ over and over is just as boring as using the ‘damsel in distress’ over and over. Every now and then is okay. Also, don’t forget romantic marriage is a relatively new phenomena. Until recently (well through the 19th century and in some areas even today), marriage was a business between two families first and foremost. The people about to get married had no say in it – pretty much like the damsel who is with the man who saved her, despite often knowing little about him. Reply to Cay Reet Emmin April 17, 2018 at 2:35 am God help me, I think I am about to defend Twilight… Above I see it is being used as an example that women still dig the damsel trope, like 50 shades. I have not read 50 shades, will probably never read it, but I have read the Twilight books when I was a teenager and, well, enjoyed them. And while I absolutely agree with the fact that there are a lot of messed up things in Twilight, from the weird stalker-boyfriend and emotional manipulation to the empty, egotistical shell of a protagonist, I don’t think I agree that Bella falls neatly into the damsel category. If you look at her actions – because, yeah, she acts – you can see that she is never waiting to be saved. She is incredibly self-sacrificing – to the point of complete creepiness – but that is a choice she makes. In the first book for instance, she ditches her protector vampires to go save her mother by… sacrificing herself. In the third book, she is on the point of cutting herself to distract a vampire opponent of Edward, to save him. Point is, she usually acts, she doesn’t wait for someone to act for her. She has agency, it’s just the agency to make stupid, suicidal decisions. Btw, I absolutely agree with everything you said, Cay, I just wanted to make the point that even so-called ‘obvious’ examples of women liking damsels – and feminists not liking them, because they’re not women? (I mean, wtf) – might be more nuanced, and might actually be empowering for the women who read them – though in this case probably in the wrong way. Bella has power – her decisions matter – even if it is power over men. She’s more of a chosen one in that everyone considers her superspecial, while she shows nothing that makes her even remotely interesting. Anyway, the books never really did me any wrong, they actually gave me a lot of laughs over the years as well as helped me develop my critical thinking when I started reading why people had issues with it. Reply to Emmin Cay Reet April 17, 2018 at 3:21 am I’m not saying Twilight is evil, either, I’m just saying that ‘it sold extremely well’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘the story is good’ or ‘the characters are great.’ It hit the market at the right time, in the right social climate and that is what made it so successful. Bella making horrible decisions instead of being a damsel works for me. I was annoyed by that ‘real women like damsels’ argument and the original poster used Twilight in his own comment. Reply to Cay Reet Emmin April 17, 2018 at 5:36 am Oh no, I was agreeing with you, I had issue with the other commentator(s) who I think brought the point up First time I replied to any conversation, so sorry if it came across as disagreement. I replied to you because you were the last one commenting on the chain Cay Reet April 17, 2018 at 5:39 am No worries, no harm done Leave a Comment Cancel Reply Name Email (will not be published) Send me an email alert for: Don't subscribe All Replies to my comments Message By submitting a comment, you confirm that you have read and agree to our comments policy.